Dialogue on 24K and 22K of Dinar

(HA) : The result of deliberations of the scholars ulama (Bahth al-Masa’il) of Nusantara: Nisab of Zakat Maal of Gold is 20 Mithqal. 1 Mithqal = 1 dinar. According to the Prophet SAWW “7 Dinars equivalent to 10 Dirhams”. So the size for nisab should be equal to 88.8 grams of gold. And not 85 grams of gold as nisab. It is the opinion majority of ulama from 5 madhhabs (jumhur ulama nusantara)’

(UV) : The opinion of the majority of the ulema is that the Dinar is not a currency and they accept paper currency as means to pay zakat. The opinion of this pro-capitalist ulema is no longer qualified. May be one day they are capable of saying that people should not pay zakat with paper money. But not today and not them. The nisab of the zakat is twenty dinars. Full stop. The nisab has nothing to do with amount of gold since gold and dinar are two different things both in function and in value. For example jewellery which is worn is also gold but does not pay zakat. Nuggets of gold which are not in circulation are also made of gold but they are not weighted, they are valued in Dinar. But I am afraid they do not know that either.

During more than 6 centuries the Dinars used in North Africa was made of West African Gold with an average gold content of 20.5 carats. The nisab was never altered.

Industrial and practical considerations regarding the use of pure gold 24 carats in the manufacturing of gold coins.Different materials have different strengths. Precious metals and their alloys have been tested for their strength and this data is known in the industry. A 10% addition of silver to gold strengthens the alloy by 100% approximately (doubles in strength) in relation to pure gold. A 10% addition of copper strengthens the alloy by 2000% app. (20 times).

The average lifespan of a 22k gold coin “in circulation” using an alloy of 50/50 copper and silver is 15 years before it loses 1% of its weight due to handling. If the alloy contains only silver the expand is around 6 years. If the coin contains only gold (24 carat) only 3 years. The conclusion is that 24k gold is ideal for storage but it is not suitable for heavy duty (regularly) handling.

24k gold is so soft than gold chain necklaces are rarely manufactured in this material because …it wears off. Rubbing a 24k necklace on the skin of the neck for a few years will eventually break the necklace.

It is important to notice that ALL coins in circulation during the Gold Standard period were made of 22k and not 24k. The technology for 24k gold was already available then and in addition it is a well known fact to all gold manufacturers know that it is much easier to manufacture a 24k item than a 22k. 22k items require additional costs due to the precise making of the alloy plus additional difficulties in processing this alloy (irregular distribution of the additional material) which involves further testing and quality control which also add to costs. Why would they choose 22k?

Some people falsely think that there is an illicit gain for the manufacturers. As expressed earlier, there is only additional costs. There would be an illicit gain if the manufacturers would nominally state ‘this is a 24k coin’ and yet they would manufacture a 22k coin. But this is not the case. Those countries who traded with each other using gold standard followed strict rules (standards). The price that the gold coin would fetch in the market would be that influenced by its functionality and usage and ultimately determined by offer and demand.

The reason to choose a 22k (more costly) coin was to make a better “circulating” coins.

“Since we could not measure 72 grains of barley accurately” http://muamalahcouncil.com/component/content/article/109-world-islamic-mint-role-purpose-objectives.html

However, according our research, there are 4.8grams circulated in subcontinent of Islamistan (Pakistan and so on), and sometime 4.6grams. The 4.25grams is the smaller and may be not relevant for today.

In a book edited by William Kazan, “The Coinage of Islam”, full color pictures almost 500 pages, some example I take:

  • Seljuq Ruler of Syria (Damascus), 489H, Dinar 4.51grams
  • Al-Ahwaz, Seljug Ruler at Iran and Iraq, 499H, Dinar 4.72grams
  • Ruler of Naysabur, 439H, Dinar 4.32grams (then in 448H Dinar 4.87grams; in 453H Dinar 4.87grams
  • Al-Rayy 453H, Dinar 4.63grams
  • Al-Muhammadiya, 392H, Dinar 4.44grams
  • Circulated in Tranxosiana 4.62gramssaid nothing about 4.25grams… and most of them are 4.4-4.5 grams (as used also by Malik ibn Marwan).

15 pemikiran pada “Dialogue on 24K and 22K of Dinar

  1. if the gold used in Rasullullah age is not 24K, let say 20.5K. Then the value of zakat should 20 mitsqal in 20.5K.

    if we use, 22K or 24K for the new dinar, then can it be consider as riba, as the weight of pure gold in the coins is increased when the weight of coins is same?

    1. the information from Vadillo regarding 20.5K is questionable though. We havent test that yet. But the stronger information we have, they are pure gold, without refinement, but it was a naturally gold and called as adz-dzahab. You can check in our local ancient gold money, mayam, ringgit and so on, it is pure gold. And in fiqh called as “dzahab kholis” means, pure gold. as it is natural gold, so whatever the purity, might vary, but based on that day technology will be consider as dzahab and it is pure.

      the increased purity, if even there is above 100%, which is impossible in logic, will not consider as riba. why? because the nisab remains. Nisab is talking about the weight and purity. So let say you have 25K or 26K or 30K of dinar, which is impossible, the weight of mithqal will be the same, and 25K/26K/30K consider as purest gold. Pull stop.

      So as long as you have the purest possible gold, as the technology allow us, that’s the purpose. But when you know how to make the purest, but you cheat away, by decrease the purity, that’s the riba.

      So I must say that, the purity, in historical point of view… it is natural, as adz-dzahab is a natural gold. And it is depends on the technology we have, this is contextual though. It is like wearing cloth, you can follow the exactly how the prophet wear, but please do not use electronic sewing machine to make them? but when you have the electronic sewing maching, you wear a lookalike prophet cloth, but may be, from modern point of view, it is cleaner, neater, etc. so it is your call.

      1. The statement of “You can check in our local ancient gold money, mayam, ringgit and so on, it is pure gold”, I think is an assumption.

        The problem of accepting of this statement is the method to achieve 99% gold purity is unavailable. If they use salt cementation or sulphur and antimony process, how will they achieve 24K of gold quality?

  2. My statement of “ancient money” is not assumption, we have some research on that.

    the method to achieve the purest gold is available. I’m not the technical person, but IMN surely make their pure gold dinar. You and I will witness it

  3. “the increased purity, if even there is above 100%, which is impossible in logic, will not consider as riba. why? because the nisab remains. Nisab is talking about the weight and purity. So let say you have 25K or 26K or 30K of dinar, which is impossible, the weight of mithqal will be the same, and 25K/26K/30K consider as purest gold. Pull stop.”

    The case is true if they are using 24K gold. however if they are not using the 24K but the purest gold available that time, which is maybe 20K or 21K and etc, my question is still valid and the discussion will still continue and go on.

    And how will we sure the gold purity based on meaning of word only? Why don’t we find the dinars that are used in the time and test them for their purity?

    1. What important is if you have pure of gold, the purest in your age, but you change it intentionally by decrease it purity, in the view of fiqh, it is a problem. That’s the point I want to highlight.

      The purest gold in Prophet’s period may not below 24K, as the Vadilo’s thesis on 20.5K is questionable.

      Fadli we have sample of coins and u can measure the purity by yourself. IMN is open for this. And there are books as reference on numismatics and coinage if you want to study further.

  4. Of course they can make as they wish. what is being debate here is a form of ijtihad. And every organisation in every continent is making their own standard of dinar and dirham. One day, we will find a lot type of dinar and dirham around.

    1. it is form of ijtihad indeed. But let us agree on common base, shariah: meaning take Quran, Sunnah, Ijma’ dan use the proper fiqh. We can consider technical and industrial point of view, like Vadilo’s did, but we have put it a side when shariah not allow them and we have to adjust and find the technique necessary to follow the sharia, not the opposite

    1. Good article you post. I will continue my research on it.

      However the Vadillo’s thesis is not on 20.5K but 22K. I am the one who put 20.5K, not really a value that are get from purity test. but to set a value that are differ from both opinion.

      This made my question about riba is valid for both of the chosen standard.

    2. Yes, I agreed with you. The technology to achieve pure gold is advance already, before Miller or Wohlwiz process discovered. There is records of Fatimid dinar purity that can achieve more than 95%, usually reaching 97-98%.

  5. Your thesis? let me see… it is what Vadilo said to me like this “During more than 6 centuries the Dinars used in North Africa was made of West African Gold with an average gold content of 20.5 carats” so, if it is really your thesis give me some prove?

    Then your question is totally impossible, as above explained. You become a person of ‘broken radio’ insisting something without proper argument.

    1. Well, I do not have any thesis yet. Both of you who did have the thesis. which is 22K and 24K.

      I choose 20.5K to put another question into your debates. In order to raise a question regarding usury, which is:

      “if the gold used in Rasullullah age is not 24K, let say 20.5K. Then the value of zakat should 20 mitsqal in 20.5K.

      if we use, 22K or 24K for the new dinar, then can it be consider as riba, as the weight of pure gold in the coins is increased when the weight of coins is same?”

  6. Ok then. because Vadilo raised 20.5K previously.

    And my answer to you, to your question, that because Rasulullah will use the best gold he can reached, then we must follow his sunnah. For example if the best gold in his age is 20.5K then following him is not make exactly 20.5K as we know we can make better. That’s why I make an example of clothing. It is also happen with car compare to camel. If we want to follow his sunnah are we prefer to use camel for transport from Makkah to Madinah? So your question, if you find the best gold in your time, with the technology you have, that’s the purpose of sunnah. So it will not consider as riba. But when you know it is possible to get the best gold, but you consider non-sharia reason, as Asif said secular reason, likewere durability to decrease production cost, that’s riba.

    Further, regarding the 22K, especially circulated in Kelantan, your country. It put me in doubt. I know that it is released by Kelantan government and using Sultan’s seal. My question is who is the authority? Your answer might said WIM? Who/what is WIM? The best answer I got Umar himself. So this murabitun jama’ah is put me to big question. Because according to Shaykh Abdalqadir teaching, we must follow and put Sultan as the amir CMIIW. Therefore, no need to establish new amirate whatsoever in a country there are amir around, with the name of sultan or whatever.

    I’m watching the football club is tends to corrupt entirely. So it will colapse entirely. Praise to Allah only.

Tinggalkan Balasan

Please log in using one of these methods to post your comment:

Logo WordPress.com

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Logout / Ubah )

Gambar Twitter

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Logout / Ubah )

Foto Facebook

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Logout / Ubah )

Foto Google+

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Logout / Ubah )

Connecting to %s